Rafał Milach

   

MS: BLACK SEA OF CONCRETE is another series of your photos that is devoted to the countries of the former Soviet Union. This time you decide to show the contemporary Ukraine. You focus on portraits, landscapes and the life of the people of the Crimea region. It is also another series that reveals your fascination with these parts of the world. Where does that passion for documenting this region, its community and culture come from?

RM: It is hard to tell where I got that passion for the former Soviet Union from. Something draws me to it. Maybe this is because I have got some family near Baikal, in Kaliningrad and in Belarus. My grandparents come from the borderland. I am really fond of the mentality of the people there. They are frank, spontaneous and straightforward. It feels like home whenever I’m there. Even back in New York I felt best in Coney Island among Ukrainian and Russian Jews. I could talk to them in Russian. This is just something that is rooted in the back of my head.

Another reason why I keep coming back to that particular place may be the fact that I was born in a country where communism was still the current political system. I remember living in PPR (Polish People’s Republic) as a little boy. It is a different perspective, maybe not a totally vivid one. Nevertheless, I was always fascinated by changes and I think they shaped my view of the world as a photographer. Never mind if it’s the descending Silesia or young Russians living in post-soviet Russia.





MS: For you as a man, not a photographer, what does it feel like being there, beyond our eastern border? I am asking about the world and especially the people you met there.

RM: I like being there and I feel good with those people. The people in the Russian project are all my friends, acquaintances, people I know. I go there several times a year not only as a photographer, but as these people’s friend, pal or a member of the family. Those people are very close to me and they stopped being only the characters from my photos long ago. Initially, they were my friends, later they became my photos’ characters and eventually they came back to that initial role. That human part of it all became in a way more important than that photographic one. As far as the photographer’s perspective is concerned, the problem was the fact that I began to like these people and lost my objectivity, if I ever had it.

MS: Are you losing your objectivity as a professional?

RM: I think that whatever I’ve done has never been objective in some way. Subconsciously I began to deny some aspects of their lives, and that was the moment that I realized it was about time to finish the project. That being a man and at the same time a photographer got mixed up too much.

MS: Your series “Black sea of concrete” does not present the Ukrainian reality directly, it is more of a creation. I guess, you are not only a photography maker but also a storyteller. I like the phrase “artistic approach towards the present” very much. It comes to my mind every time I look at your photos.

RM: I enjoy first-person narration very much and, in fact, I am not that interested in portraying reality. I am much more into interpreting and processing reality. I don’t mean creating and arranging particular situations. To me it is more about choosing the parts that are in some way closer to me than the rest.





MS: Does it matter in a documentary to have a certain personal key, a story as a starting point for a subject? What was the main subject of your interest while working on this series?

RM: Geographically speaking the journey started from Crimea. The thing that visually struck me there was the contrast between the beautiful scenery, especially on the southern coast of Crimea, and what has been done to it for decades of the Soviet Union. I got struck by the omnipresence of concrete. Wherever I went, wherever I stopped I would always come across a concrete beach, blocks of flats made of concrete, concrete frameworks of unfinished hotels, concrete mazes. Everything made of concrete. At the time I was there it was not the tourist season, so the whole colorful mess was absent. Everything was very rough and that’s why it struck my eyes so much.

MS: I figure the visual layer of the project resulted mainly from the scenery and surroundings you encountered there. What can you tell me about the documentary level of it?

RM: I was in Ukraine at a very interesting time of the political crisis of 2008. Ukraine was politically split up and drowning in chaos. To make things worse the economic crisis begun. This country’s nation is divided between those in favor of Russia and those in favor of European Union. You could feel some kind of tension in the air. As far as the people are concerned, it was a depressing experience. Even the young people I talked to seemed resigned and helpless. They were disappointed with the Orange Revolution and the chaos in politics and economy.

On the other hand, it was very interesting, as everything that is based on contrast. Dissonance. There, the dissonance was almost palpable, both visually and mentally.

MS: The material we can see at the exhibition comes from a single trip. Or maybe there were more?

RM: It was a single trip indeed. In fact, it was one of the shortest author’s projects I have ever created. I was aware of the fact that I had only two weeks, so I tried to make the best of my time there. I worked hard from dawn till dusk everyday. Yes, it was an intensive and productive trip.

MS: Did you have to spend some time acclimatizing, observing before you started taking pictures?

RM: I didn’t have time for that. I got down to work on the first day of my stay over the sea.





MS: Could you tell me something about the conditions you met in the region at that time?

RM: Well, it depended on the area I was in. In the southern coast of Crimea the temperature was about 20oC, despite the fact that it was winter. Whereas in Odessa and near the Romanian border it was snowing. From the geographical aspect, it was interesting, because these are not very distant places. I was there at the beginning of December, which is not the tourist season.

MS: Did you have anyone there to help you get to know the people, someone who has contacts and can recommend you or simply bring you inside the society? I’m thinking about someone like Stalker from the A. Tarkowski’s movie.

RM: It was a very interesting project for me, because a lot of things happened to me for the first time there. It was the first time I worked with a professional fixer, a guide. It was mostly because I had limited time. I needed a driver and someone to look for other potentially interesting sites, while I was working. Right from the start it was clear to me what kind of places I needed. I made a list of things I was looking for and we worked on it. It was very convenient and costly, since I paid my guide well for his work. Obviously, I don’t regret anything. It all gave me a lot of motivation and I had the feeling of making the best of my time there.

MS: Before this one, how did you use to prepare yourself for that kind of projects?

RM: I always try to find someone who knows the area and the people well. Someone who knows about any potentially interesting situations that might interest me as a photographer. Although, they were never professional fixers.

MS: Each of your photos can be treated as a documentary and at the same time a piece of art. Why did you decide to turn to that particular photographic aesthetics?

RM: The initial idea was the sea. The relation between a man and the sea. The whole material is a very geographical one, and the photos themselves function as individual images. They are obviously also connected. The theme that is a kind of link between say an old post-soviet block of flats, a concrete beach or a ruinous fishing harbor, is the sea.

This material as if slides down the surface, since most of the portraits and places I show are barely my impressions rather than deeper stories. There’s only one private story hidden in the series. I had to adjust my way of thinking about the project to what I was actually able to do. Two weeks is a very little time. For each single place I could only spare one or two days maximum. Any deeper insight was out of question.

As a matter of fact, visually everything turned out along the way. The omnipresent concrete dominated the scenery. From one spot to another I began to focus my work on that particular factor. Instead of shooting hot dog huts, I concentrated on concrete blocks of flats. As I was meeting and talking to people I was getting more and more overwhelmed by the post-soviet concrete Ukraine. A country that is striving for a change, yet it is unable to do that, because it is still deeply rooted in its past.





MS: How many photos are we going to see at the exhibition? Is this a completely finished project? I know you have created a very interesting album devoted to that subject. Do you plan to publish anything more on it?

RM: The exhibition consists of 26 photos and the whole series covers about 40. Together with Majka Kaszkur, the custodian, we have chosen that number of photos, because we were limited by the space and rhythm of the exhibition. We took into consideration the subjects of the photos and the way they were going to be presented. The album has not yet been published and so far it is only an advanced model of a book rather than a complete publication. I hope I will soon be able to publish it. The book has also been noticed at Photography Book Now in the USA.

MS: Could you say something more about selecting the photos for the exhibition and the construction of the exhibition itself?

RM: The whole material is a mixture of landscapes, architecture and portraits. Generally speaking, together with Majka we tried to build the exhibition so that it would consist of single images rather than broad stories. They were meant to be visually strong pictures. I wanted each picture to have a sufficient load of symbolics and all the elements of the main theme necessary to function as an individual image.


MS: Is this your first complete exhibition of the series?

RM: In this way, yes. The series is a part of a much bigger project about Ukraine, which I took part in together with 8 other photographers from the Sputnik Photos collective. We had an opening exhibition of this project in The United States. The next one is going to take place in Gronigen.

MS: When are you going to show it in Ukraine?

RM: We are probably going to do it in the second half of 2010. The exhibition is going to be shown in Kiev. It is being negotiated at the moment.

MS: Have you shown the photos to some Ukrainians?

RM: To some, yes.

MS: What did they tell you about it?

RM: So far, the people who have seen the photos were in one way or another connected with art. That is why I think, they perceived them more like artistic images and photos and not like an attempt to define Ukraine. They liked them and I got positive opinions.





MS: When looking at your photos I get the feeling of some kind of expectation. New spaces are created within something unpredictable and critical with a touch of nonsense. Through cloudy, stormy sky, dark colors, grim and devastated scenery, single characters appearing there one gets overtaken by a thought about the future of the world you present. I’m interested how you see it.

RM: The whole material is more about society than politics. I am not sure if I can answer that question, since I barely know Ukraine. I have only been there four times. What is more, it was a very specific time for Ukraine. The people who were in favor of the European Union and wanted to preserve their national and cultural identity chose revolution. Then, it turned out that what they had heard from the politicians did not come true. They were confused. It was their only alternative from Russia and it turned out that it didn’t work. The question was: will the old order come back under Janukowycz’s rule or not? It’s hard to tell. Those who favored Russia are now probably satisfied, but, all in all, you never know what the future holds.

MS: When looking at the series one notices a lot of similarities between Poland and Ukraine. Do you think our Polish historic experience can help us understand the photos? Is there anything there that a person from another part of the world could not see?

RM: I don’t think these photos are difficult to understand for someone outside our cultural circles. However, the people from mid-eastern Europe when looking at the photos, surely will filter them through their own experience. They can find some things difficult to find for say Americans or western Europeans. I don’t know if that’s something important as far as perceiving the photos is concerned. I believe that they are somehow universal and they illustrate well what I wanted to show.

MS: In your photos, not only those at the exhibition, the thing that instantly comes to mind is a certain humanistic admiration of man. I seem to have a lot of passion, sensitivity and love for humans. I get the feeling that you present a human in an existential manner. The world and the lives of the people you document seem to be overwhelmed by some dramatic element such as transience and oblivion. Is this some kind of universal truth about human that you aim to convey in you works? Is there any bigger idea behind all your work?

RM: I remember what Svetlana Alexeyevich once wrote. She said she was always trying find as much human in a human. No matter the situation people find themselves in or what they do or what moment of their lives they are in. I totally agree with it. I’m all about it. In my case there are always people in the photos. It doesn’t matter if they are physically present in the photos or if it’s just a trace. The human is always most important.





MS: Your photos are full of plots. They are far more than just images. I think many people feel that way when they see your works. What is important for you in photographing people? What do you look for and try to capture in your characters?

RM: I always look for people. May it be Russia, Ukraine or a story about a circus. People are always in the foreground. I try not to judge the people I take photos of. What you ask about is also a matter of choosing the right subject. You have to ask yourself the question: what characters are you looking for? For me the subject is transformation, of places, people, it doesn’t matter.

MS: This is just my personal feeling, but when I look at your photos I start asking myself questions about me and who I am.

RM: It’s good that my photography is communicative and universal. The fact that I show Stas, who lives in eastern Syberia, does not mean it’s only about Stas. It’s about all Stases in the world. The more sincere and the deeper the relations with the people I have the more you can find for yourself in them. The better the photos. The fact that I take pictures of circus artists or Mr Maksymiuk from Biała Podlaska has secondary meaning. It’s always about something more than just the people themselves, although they are very important, since it’s them in the photos. I’m always about something more, about putting the character in a larger context.

MS: As I mentioned above, I sense a deep interest in human in your photos. In your opinion, what is documentary photography in portrait?

RM: It’s what we are talking about now. It’s about a man and about getting to him. That’s what a documentary is based on. It’s perfect if we are able to get rid of all stereotypes and approach someone in a totally fresh way. When we do not create anyone, reality or situation. There is a paradox to it, however. On the one hand I like when the photographer brings a lot into the situation. On the other hand there a thin red line, beyond which you get the feeling that something is over-elaborated, over-arranged or simply overdone. Sometimes it’s about tiny nuances. The more you have of that genuine human in front of the lens, the better documentary portrait you get.

There’s one more thing. I’m not quite sure how to position myself in a way. I used to do a lot of classical report. When I started working for newspapers I was taking a lot of portraits. It surely influenced in a way what I did for myself. That was an interesting experience, since I hadn’t done a lot of portrait work before. Now I noticed I moved away from photographing people. It doesn’t mean that I lost my interest in people. As I said above, the fact that you don’t see people in the photo doesn’t mean that they’re not there at all. A documentary portrait can be anything, not necessarily a human face.





MS: How do you, as a photographer, approach the person you portrait? I mean, what is your idea of the photographer-photographed relation?

RM: Above all the respect you show for the person and, of course, time. Time and attention you devote to your model. It’s good when the photographer meets the model at the same level. You can’t just go somewhere and judge someone or try to position him or her as you like. It doesn’t matter if the situation your character is in is good or bad. The point is you have to forget about all those clichés, about everything you know to be able to get to the person. Then we are more likely to understand them. The respect you show for the person is automatically shown back to you.

MS: Honesty for honesty?

RM: Yes, it all comes back to you. And, smile. Smile always works.

MS: I think that sooner or later every aware and mature artist photographer faces a moment when he is left by himself. Without authorities, without the strong influence of the people who help you develop. Many photographers when they start their adventure called photography have someone special, who teaches them and lets them develop their talents. Did you happen to meet someone like that along your way?

RM: On your way as a creator you are actually alone from the very start. It does not only relate to photography but other creative fields as well. I’ve had a few people in my life who shaped me as a photographer. One of them was Piotr Szymon (R.I.P), a photo-documentalist. He taught me about the attitude towards photography, towards people. He didn’t teach me to take photos, since it’s more a matter of skill. More important is what you have in your head. He taught me how I should behave as a photographer, which was very important to me and now it’s a kind of frame for me. My photographer’s spine. I’m sure it’s very important and valuable to meet someone like this on your way when you are a beginning photographer. It’s priceless.

Naturally, there are still people who inspire me in one way or another. I sometimes tend to easily get inspired with somebody else’s photos. It bothers me. It can be both destructive and refreshing. You know, we all want to speak our own language. We want to speak of what we feel, not somebody else. If you come across a strong personality, someone unique, you always get influenced by the person.

Meeting Michael Ackermann was something significant for me. He once came to Poland to take photos of the Silesia region and I had a chance to talk to him. It was something big for me.





MS: You are Silesian, aren’t you?

RM: I don’t really know who I am. I was born in Silesia and I feel Silesian. However, my ancestors don’t come from Silesia, so probably for someone from there I’m not at all Silesian. I’m more from the borderland.


MS: A large part of your work in connected with Sputnik Photos. Could you say something more about the collective? Its history, foundation and the photographers that take part in the project?

RM: They are all wonderful people and gifted photographers. To make a long story short, we founded the project more than four years ago. Most of us met one another at the 7th Photo Agency workshop in France in 2004. We came up with the idea that, since we all come from the same region, we should make a project together. We founded a society. We applied for a grant in European Culture Foundation and we got it. That’s how it started. We started working on a group project, which resulted in several exhibitions in five or six European countries and the publication of a book.

Sputnik Photos is a group of friends, not a photo agency in any sense. It’s more like from project to project kind of existence in our case. However, we are constantly active as a collective and we often do some work together.

MS: What is it that you work on together? Can you tell me something more about it?

RM: We always start from an idea for a subject. The first project we made was about working immigrants in our part of Europe. It was the time when a lot of young people from our region started leaving for the British Isles and Ireland in search of work. Everyone at that time concentrated on immigrants from Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia living in the western Europe. We thought that we would like to show people, who come to work in our countries. The project was about Belorussians, Ukrainians and Vietnamese. There was also a story about a man from Cameroon. Our next project was Ukraine. At present, we got a grant for a new project, but I don’t want to reveal anything about it. It will be ready in 2011.

Generally speaking, a photographer’s work is something individual and it’s a big challenge to work in a team. There are projects, which can’t be done single-handed. These projects are better suited for a group. We try to design a project so that we all have something to do in it, and that’s cool.

MS: Personally, I really liked the works of Andrey Liankevich, who is also a member of Sputnik Photos? Could you tell me something more about him?

RM: He is our new guy. Andrey is a very young and talented Belorussian photographer.
He’s a real treasure for the Belorussian photography. Besides being a photographer, he also organizes workshops, teaches at a photographic school in Vilna and even runs one of these schools himself. He is a very active young man and is involved in many other non-photographic activities. I like it about him. Considering what in currently happening in Belarus you could say there is no photographic culture there. Every ambitious initiative happening there is worth its weight in gold. And that’s what Andrey is doing, I think.





MS: I think that the social and cultural world of the former Soviet Union’s republics is unique for photographers. The lack of security and stability, constant confusion and the remains of the past military regime in the minds of the people of these countries constitute a fine onset for photographic subjects. I heard, however, that the most interesting photo series related to that subject come from artists from other countries. Perhaps, it’s a question of distance and sensitivity. What do you think is the reason for this? I’m also interested if there are any artists, whose works are also documenting that part of the world that you find interesting. If so, why?

RM: It actually is as you said that most materials showing not only that part of the world but other as well are stories told by people from the outside. In my opinion in Russia there are a few good photographers such as Sasha Gronsky, Rena Effendi or Sergey Maximishin. It may be true that it’s difficult to document something from your closest neighborhood. That is way I keep telling my students to keep their eyes open at all times. It’ difficult, though. I am often asked why I don’t do the same thing I did in Russia in Poland. The answer is simple. For me Poland is more associated with professional work, which is why I need to be somewhere abroad to achieve a different working rhythm. Once in a while I create some small projects in Poland, but so far, there’s too many things here that distract me as a photographer.


MS: It seems that you share the opinion that everything has already been photographed. What do you mean?

RM: I mean the subjects and places. There are virtually no places, or very few, that we can visually discover or explore. The times when we discovered the life of people from places far away from Europe a long gone. For example, the thing that the Magnum agency was doing 40 or 50 years ago. I don’t mean that it was a geo-tourist kind of photography, because, obviously, these places had been geographically and scientifically discovered earlier. What I mean is that visual exploring of the world began at that time as well.

The fact that nowadays there is so many images, subjects and information makes it difficult for one to come up with a subject that will surprise everyone. In that sense, everything has already been photographed.

The key thing is to filter a subject through yourself. I’m sure it’s the only possible way get people interested in your work. You must add something yours to it, to make people want to look at it. Why would anyone want to see Russia, Silesia or a circus for the fiftieth time? Whereas, if you concentrate on a particular fragment of that reality and add something yours to it, then it may turn out interesting. All in all, the subject can be anywhere. No matter if it’s a conflict somewhere at the other end of the world or your neighbors’ life. It’s about finding something interesting for us, something we want to speak about. I believe there are no bad subjects, there are only bad productions.

MS: You said “ add something yours” and you meant your own point of view and the way you see things as a creator. But, how do you know that it’s yours and it’s new?

RM: There are no guarantees that what you do will open some new gate. I think that if you do something that comes from within you and you do it with sincere commitment, there is a big chance that something interesting is going to result from it. Interesting enough to attract someone’s attention.





MS: Is the pursuit of new spaces in photography something you do for yourself, or is it meant to be shared more widely?

RM: Photographers, creators, they don’t usually do things only to put them in the drawer, I think. The problem is, will the world like to see what we are doing? Are the things we do going to be interesting only for us, our friends or some wider audiences. I think it’s absolutely crucial not to fake anything and always do things from the heart and with commitment. You have to filter it through yourself. However, there are no guarantees that it’s going to be a revelation. You must keep trying, as simple as it sounds.

MS: When I look at your works, especially the author’s ones, I notice your great knowledge of traditional photography expressed by cultural and visual awareness. What is your artistic education and how do you develop it?

RM: I am a graphic artist by education. It was after my studies at The Academy of Fine Arts that my interest in photography started. I think that fact is significant in my case. Sometimes it can be a problem, because I tend to pay too much attention to the aesthetic and formal side of my photos. I like my pictures to be visually strong, and the problem is that I don’t want them to be only “blown eggs”. I want them to have something interesting inside.

The graphic artist’s education, knowledge of the history of art and photography is something “opening”. The whole history of art is full of symbols. There are a lot of quotes, references and it’s good to be aware of it all. It nice to be able to use different means for different subjects. I like it.

MS: Do you think you have your own style?

RM: I think I’m really far from what we know as own style or style in general. I do things that are so different and you can see that on my website, for example. You might get the impression that the photos there were taken by several different photographers. I don’t have any problems with that. Being versatile is something very refreshing and I’ve felt good about so far. Style is something that is born and can be developed after years of working.

MS: Speaking about developing your own visual awareness, is it about constant work, learning and observing?

RM: We build our awareness on everything. We build our sensitivity on everything. It can be photos, movies, books or meeting interesting people. You never know what can open your head for something new. It’s fascinating.

For instance, lately I’ve been fascinated by words, literature. I think. Good literature can be a lot more powerful than a good picture. This is because a picture gives us a ready-made solution, whereas a good text engages our imagination and, although it requires a lot more effort from us, it gives more satisfaction, if we can visualize everything ourselves. I’m really into words recently. I’m totally impressed by Svetlana Alexeyevich. It’s probably due to the fact that I’ve been thinking about her texts from an album I’ve been working on recently. Her writing sweeps me of my feet. I have not seen anything so powerful and vivid for a long time.





MS: What kind of literature is it?

RM: It’s a report. She writes mainly about the Soviet Union. Her words are very massive. She touches subjects such as Chernobyl, people who committed suicides after the fall of the USSR or the Afghan-Russian war. What is more, she experienced it all herself by talking to these people. Her books are based on interviews with the people, monologues and true stories of her characters.

MS: I agree with the opinion that documenting is the power of photography. The story and its interpretation is in the eyes of the viewers, but by means of staging and certain manipulating the reality a photographer can go beyond the line of the viewers’ own experience. He can teach the viewers something or make them think in a particular way. What do you think, can we still treat documentary photography as a force that can change the world? Or should we rather see it as a kind of personal story for a small, niche group of people?

RM: Can photography change the world? Shortly speaking, I don’t believe that photography can change the world. Not in the global sense, at least. Of course, it also depends on what we think of as “the world”. If we think of it as someone’s own life, it might be possible in a way. I wouldn’t exaggerate about the photographer’s role as far changing the world is concerned. I remember a scene from the movie “Rwanda hotel”, where a war reporter meets a local hotel worker. Everyone knows that horrible things are happening. The Hutus are killing the Tutsis and vice versa. So the reporter shows the hotel worker the material he filmed, after which he starts apologizing for having done it. Then, the hotel worker says that it’s good that he filmed the horrible things, because now the whole world is going to see what happened. And then the reporter says that people will do nothing but say “that’s horrible” and continue eating dinner. This is, of course, a symbolic scene and it doesn’t have to look like that in all cases, but generally, I think that’s very true. I believe, photography does not have any serious influence on the course of history.

MS: However, you don’t deny that it is capable of changing some things?

RM: It depends on the scale. I don’t say it’s not worth trying. It is worth it. A documentary or a photo report is in a way like guilty conscience. That’s something good. It’s like the red alert that starts every once in a while. Even if it makes no big change, it’s that little prick of conscience, which is always something good. If you make some valuable material, which will make some people do something, it always a success. Generally speaking, however, I don’t really believe in any kind of big global change.

MS: Do you think that decades ago it was easier?

RM: I think that in the past people believed in it more. They believed in television, media and what they saw on photos and paintings. Now, they show us conflicts from around the world. Are these things about to end, no, unfortunately not. Nothing really changes. It doesn’t mean that showing what is happening around the world is not worth it. Who knows what would happen if we didn’t show it at all.

MS: Do you see the possibility of changing the world only as something drastic?

RM: I was talking about a global scale. It doesn’t matter what it is, a conflict or the life of a circus worker. I don’t think it might have any serious influence on reality. There are, of course, nice examples. For example, after my circus project and the rise of interest it caused, the people I put in the story experienced a kind of revival. Although, it was a bit more like an unplanned side effect, it was nice that people started being interested in it again. They received offers from film-makers, who invited them to act in films and shows. I am not saying it was the direct effect of my photo series, but I’m glad I had my little part in it. In that sense I must admit it is possible that something changes for the better.





MS: Let’s move to the next subject. You have worked on a project about a boot camp in Siberia. How did you come up with that idea?

RM: It was a pure coincidence and a very short story in fact. It lasted for only one or two days. The idea came up while I was working on a totally different series. At that time one of my friends, who was working for some local election campaign, got in touch with on e of the election candidates. The man was a retired high rank military officer. One phone call and I was free to take photos inside the camp. I didn’t have to get any permits. Later, I tried to get an official admission to a similar boot camp in another town and it wasn’t as easy as before. I had some problems with the local bureaucracy. It wasn’t impossible, though. In fact, I didn’t really care about it that much. Boot camps are not that important in terms of military and strategic issues.

MS: Your author’s photos are mostly related to the subject of society and they surely don’t handle the subject gently. I understand that photography of this kind is connected with some kind of alienation. It is not something that the popular media would be interested in, thus it’s probably not that profitable for a photographer. Despite that fact, you still keep on working on your projects. How do you manage to work both as a commercial photographer and the author of your projects? Being the author surely requires much more time and a kind of mental “catharsis”.

RM: In my case it always goes both ways. I simply have to work to have money for my author’s projects. I don’t complain about that. That’s how it looks when you work as a photographer. My projects are something I do for myself, they give me the opportunity to fully express myself as an artist. Going to the Black Sea was something like that for me. At that time I worked hard for various newspapers and I needed a drastic change of environment. Then, came the project and I was able to “reset”.


MS: Would you say that such photographic catharsis is something essential?

RM: Obviously, the ideal situation is when you do something that comes from inside of you. I think, everyone sees it that way. Finding that proper balance is something very important. What I do for myself as a photographer is a kind of photographic vacation. It often happens that when I do my author’s projects for myself and I don’t make money from it, I find myself thinking that I should rather start making a living instead of making art. But, when I start working for money again I also start missing my author’s projects. It is possible for those two things to coexist. With every photographer the proportions differ.

We must not forget that commercial jobs also have some advantages. You get to meet lots of interesting people. Sometimes, they are nice challenges, which make you react quickly and demand a different kind of thinking from you. They can also be kind of refreshing to what you do for yourself.





MS: Nowadays, you may get the impression that the press photo report started resembling TV news. The main idea of the subject has been moved towards the background, whereas the dominating element has been the populist attractiveness of the image and its content. How do you find the contemporary documentaries? Are there any contemporary documentalists whose works you would recommend?

RM: There are a few names. I’ve been recently fascinated by the photographers from southern Africa. They are widely appreciated now. People such as Adam Broomberg, Oliver Chanarin, Peter Hugo, Michael Subotzky, David Golblad or Jodi Bieber.


MS: These are all top photographers.

RM: Yes, they are. I like the way they present the present-day Africa. I’m into it and it’s very inspiring.

MS: What about Poland?

RM: For sure one of the most important person in the contemporary documentary is Andrzej Kramarz. I really appreciate the things he does as a photographer, custodian and a former co-organizer of the photography month in Cracow. People like him are real treasures for the Polish photography. I also like what Kuba Dąbrowski and Adam Pańczuk are doing now. Polish photography is full of remarkable phenomena.

MS: As an artist, you are represented by the Warsaw’s Yours Gallery. I have organized quite a few exhibitions and won some prestigious photographic awards. I wonder what your opinion of the Polish modern photography market is. Does the market differ from the ones found anywhere else in the world?

RM: Unfortunately, there is no such market here yet.

MS: Does being an artist photographer in our country always mean empty pockets?

RM: If you choose to make a living on selling your photos as pieces of art, then it certainly does. Such thing as a photography gallery market in Poland does not really exist. People have not yet got used to the fact that a good photo in a reasonably limited edition is just as valuable as a painting or sculpture. Just as unique as well. Maybe, this is because photography is so common and often associated with something very ordinary. It doesn’t have to be like this.

MS: Isn’t this situation the result of the lack of visual awareness in our society?

RM: Yes, it is. Our society is visually illiterate, actually. It is also true that we are visually and culturally “retarded”. This is, of course, a general statement about our society. Unfortunately, this is how it looks and I hope it will soon change. A deer on its rutting ground is what fascinates us. I am not against deer, though.

MS: Has photography become a true fine art?

RM: Yes, it has. It has been a fine art since not long ago, though. It is also noticeable as far as prices are concerned.





MS: I was wondering if you and others like you, meaning the polish photographers who have achieved some international success, have the feeling that you are building that important visual awareness about photography. You are a few now and the number is constantly increasing.

RM: I think that’s very good. We are learning. Generally, I am happy that we are starting to be recognized outside our country and we should not fell worse than anyone from abroad. There have been a lot of good things going on in Polish photography recently. We are finally catching up with the rest of the world. But, as I said before, it’s a matter of the past few years, it’s something relatively new for us. I hope this is something that’s meant to last, something more permanent and it’s not going to turn out as a temporary craze that will soon be over.

MS: It’s plain to see that you are very interested in photography as a means to tell stories. Perhaps, it would make sense if I asked you about one series, that for you tells the most important story. On the contrary, however, I want to ask you about a single photo, which, as we know can also tell a story. Do you happen to have a photo that’s close to your heart and is connected with a special story?

RM: Generally speaking, I feel closely tied to the photos I made recently and all that’s currently on my mind. It doesn’t mean I don’t like the photos from the series “The Grey” (a series about he Upper Silesia region), for example. I also don’t think they are bad photos. It’s just that they are in a way distant now. I also don’t think that I could photograph the fishermen, which was one my first series, the same way I did it at that time. Never again was I able to do something equally good as far as the kind of imaging is concerned.

MS: Among the photos we can see at the exhibition, which one do you like best?

RM: I like the photo from the sanatorium for war veterans very much. It’s a group scene and one of two photos with more than one character in it. It was taken at a dance for the sanitarium quests. I like the photo because it’s spontaneous and also because of the fact that it wasn’t an arranged situation. I also like the photo of the ship in the harbor. I like a few photos of the sea itself. They remind me of getting up at dawn and listening to the sea. I would stare at it and breathe it, without taking any photos.

MS: You also teach photography at Polish schools?

RM: I work for one school in two places. It’s the Academy of Photography in Warsaw and in Cracow.

MS: What subject in photography are your classes devoted to and what do you try to teach your students? What do you sensitize your students to?

RM: My classes are in the documentary lab and what I try to convince my students to is the documentary interpretation of whatever it is that surrounds them. I want them to start taking a good look at what’s around them and be able to filter it through themselves. I really like it, especially when I get some feedback from them. I enjoy interacting with them and when they give back the energy it makes it even more pleasant. There are groups, days, months, when I get more of it and that’s when it feels so nice and enjoyable. I benefit a lot from it, because before I tell them something, anything, I always have to lay things out in my head, which is really nice exercise. There are some things we think about and they seem obvious, but the moment you say them out loud, they find their own places in your head. I like that about teaching.

MS: We learn a lot when we teach others, don’t we?

RM: Yes, I totally agree with you. I nice to have a chance to meet many different people. Sometimes they are interesting, young, beginning photographers, who often have fresh and good ideas. It is also in a way refreshing for me. It motivates me to work.

MS: Do you have any special students you would like to tell us about?

RM: Yes, I do. Especially in Cracow there are many interesting people. I don’t remember the names now, but it’s just a small group among all the students I teach. To be honest, it’s for that small group that I do the classes. In Warsaw, for example, there is a student, Patryk Karwowski, who is a very talented, young photographer. I hope that he will succeed in what he’s doing. He’s worked very hard during the time I was teaching him and he’s slowly beginning to function as a photographer. There’s also Krzysiek from Cracow, who made a very nice cycle of portraits connected with the beautician’s parlours. Sometimes, I get real gems.

It also often happens that some non-photographic stories turn up along the way. Recently, an interesting thing happened when people brought me photos and it wasn’t the photos that was the most interesting thing about it. The most interesting was what they told me about the situations connected with the photos, about all the things that happened around the pictures. Their stories were truly amazing.

My main objective with teaching is to make my students learn to think. You can learn to take photos sooner or later, but the important thing is where it all comes from. It may come from your head, heart or stomach. That’s important.





MS: Are there any living or deceased photographers you would like to spend an evening and have a bottle of whisky? Who would that be and why?

RM: You see, it’s funny, because whenever I meet a famous photographer I instantly become speechless. I don’t what to ask about. It is only when we say goodbye that I start getting ideas for questions. I always get stressed when I met someone great. I have had some chances to meet wonderful photographer on my way and maybe it wasn’t a bottle of whisky, but I was lucky enough to be near them for a moment.

One of such photographers was surely Adam Broomberg, whom I met at the portfolio review in Cracow several years ago. To me he is a very intelligent photographer. Together with Oliver Chanarin, they have been creating many strong and expressive projects. Everything about their projects is so perfectly settled as far as the conceptual and visual levels are concerned.

MS: As far as I remember, it was them who let their mentally handicapped models take pictures themselves, wasn’t it?

RM: Yes, that’s right. It was a part of their “Ghetto” project. The album they published, entitled “Ghetto”, is one of the most important projects I have seen in my entire life. It may not sound very original, but I would also like to talk to Nan Goldin.

MS: Your main artistic language is photography, but I noticed that you occasionally make use of other forms of artistic expression, which as if contribute to your stories. You make videos, interesting publications and some written material. What’s the reason for this?

RM: Not everything can be told only through still images. There are certain things, that are better described by sound or text. It is better to speak about some things than to show them. For some things it’s better to function as moving pictures than still images. It gives the viewer more visual sensation. I don’t mean showiness here. I mean a richer and fuller view.

MS: Do you think that the technological development of photographic equipment will stop being used as a tool by artists photographers? That in some time the only real and valued photography will be the image recorded on film with, for example, a big-format camera?

RM: It’s a matter of individual taste if you choose to take photos with a Polaroid, a “monkey” or a big-format. It’s not that important. In my case, a digital camera in my hand makes me go crazy. There are people, however, who can make the best use of this device.





MS: Do you think that the printed press will soon disappear and the documentary and report will move to the television or Internet? Does the photography presented on the Internet live by its own rules?

RM: The Internet gives you amazing possibilities. You are not limited by e.g. the number of pages. You can show an essay consisting of tens of photos or make a multimedia material that will show a truly wide story. It is surely not the same thing as printing five or six photos on paper. The problem with the Internet is that it’s cheap and easily accessible. Whatever appears on the Internet does not make an impression of something exclusive and it does not make you feel that it’s something valuable enough to pay for it.

MS: Is this all a matter of copyright?

RM: Yes, it surely is. In my opinion the rates for the Internet publications, in Poland at least, are completely inadequate to the amount of work done. Let’s take a look at the multimedia-essays published in the Internet issues of newspapers. Very few people realize that the production of such materials is much more work-and-time-consuming than it is in case of a typical photo-material. I mean the final result. The making of good multimedia material took me five times more time, than working on the photos alone. The press will move to the Internet. It will have to due to the economic factors. I hope that the rates for the Internet publications will change along with it.

MS: Do you think about the future of photography?

RM: Photography will not die, if that’s what you ask about. If only things will look as good as they look now, I would not worry about it.

MS: What made you laugh recently?

RM: I don’t remember. It must have been something stupid for sure.




Rafał Milach was interviewed by Mariusz Sledź: www.modernphoto.pl
More photos of Rafał can be found on his website: www.rafalmilach.com

 

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